Mindful Presence & Embodiment: A Conversation with Andrew Rosenstock

The following transcript times start from after the introduction and the “ting” sound.

Serge Prengel (00:02.654)
So I’m with Andrew Rosenstock. Hi, Andrew.

Andrew (00:05.794)
Hi, Serge, lovely to see you again.

Serge Prengel (00:08.744)
So we had the intention today to have a conversation in which we do our best to be present and embodied.

Andrew (00:20.45)
Yeah, and as I was saying in our brief pre-call, because I had wanted to have less of a pre-call so that it could be more quote unquote authentic, I have been excited in a positive way, but also curious how will we go about this because so much of it.

is happening prior to logical thought. And here we are going to be trying to go to that upper area and making sense and how much of that will be taking us out. And also curious for me is that I have had a busy morning seeing clients, how much of me is going to still be…

with those clients and how much can I arrive here, I didn’t, purposely I didn’t want to do a practice to arrive here more. I wanted to meet you as best as I could with everything that was happening as a way of seeing how to bring that into reality.

Serge Prengel (01:26.706)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it’s kind of a normal situation in life. We arrive somewhere with all the baggage of life and the baggage of the past half hour and all of that stuff. And so what we’re doing maybe is we’re just kind of consciously becoming present, entering into the moment.

Andrew (01:51.116)
Yeah. Yeah.

Serge Prengel (01:51.546)
And yeah, so until maybe kind of describing this process of what it’s like to enter into the moment. And for me, for me, as you were talking, I had a sense of calm. Once I realize, okay, this is not just about this conversation. This is what happens in general. We arrive and we transition from all the other stuff to this present moment to

Andrew (02:00.653)
Yeah.

Serge Prengel (02:21.338)
connecting with somebody. And so as I started realizing that, I felt my body settle and my sense of rhythm go slower. And so that’s it. I’m curious to check with you what’s happening as you make this transition.

Andrew (02:43.81)
Yeah, similar. And I’m noticing a lot of what I’ll call upness as an excitement, the wanting to explain it, the wanting to be in it, all this sort of stuff there, which is keeping me less grounded and not in a bad way, but then also this other part that, especially as you were saying, it was allowing me to settle in feeling the, what I would say the center of my, my, my

proprioceptive center of gravity slowly dropping down with also this there’s excitement. I appreciate you so much. I love listening to the way you hold talks. I get so much out of it. And so there is a mixture of many things I’m noticing happening here and working my best to

not force myself to ground, but to keep allowing, okay, there’s excitement, but is that amount necessary or can I still meet surge while landing here?

Serge Prengel (03:53.768)
Yeah, yeah. And as I’m listening to you, I’m hearing the content, but I’m also hearing how your voice has been slowing down. Even just in the last thing you said, I noticed a slowing down from the beginning to right now. And so I’m feeling more of a sense of the two of us being in a process of slowing down together.

Andrew (04:20.302)
Yeah, yeah, I’ll say my part of my intellect and my feeling is I would like it slower, but I am, as I said, have what I’ve come here with and I will, I know that I will, but there is still a a prosody and a texture to my voice and a feeling in my chest. I can feel some contraction that is slowly, I can actually feel it kind of rippling. And even now there, the breath comes and there’s a landing, landing more. Yeah.

Serge Prengel (04:50.024)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so you’re still feeling something that has an energy or a rhythm that’s not quite the slowing down, and you’re naming it. And as I hear you naming it, I feel a sense of, great, welcome, let’s welcome it. Let’s not just say in a way that being present is to be a certain way. It’s nice, it helps to slow down.

But maybe let’s just welcome what is, and what is includes some of that excitement.

Andrew (05:29.196)
Yeah, and I think part of naming it as well, or maybe not even naming it, but expressing it and being with it, as soon as I was done speaking, I did feel this weightedness to me that, that already allowed it to move.

Serge Prengel (05:53.266)
Yeah, yeah. So at the same time as you speaking, and so in a way being conceptual, making sense, you also have that experience of the weightedness. And the experience of it helps something move.

Andrew (06:10.945)
Yeah.

Yeah, it’s still, it’s the challenge of this. This is one of the reasons I’d contacted you is we can be very much in the narrative of it or this thinking way or this cortical way. And that’s helpful. We are mental beings. But the mental explanation of even embodiment isn’t embodiment.

And it’s not that it’s bad, it’s not a villain. It just can take us out of experience into the description of experience. And so how do we have that? There’s a value in it, but how do we not get lost in that? Because all those mental things have value until they don’t, until they’re slightly off.

the embodied being underneath, I don’t believe it has a slightly off, it just is simply responding to phenomena.

Serge Prengel (07:08.232)
Yeah, yeah. So there’s a paradox that in order to share experience, we describe it, but describing it takes us out of the experience and certainly hearing described experience, you know, puts people outside of the experience. And so there’s a limitation. Maybe there is a way in which we can’t really fully share the experience.

But maybe we’re inviting people who are listening to this to check what’s happening to them as we struggle with finding a rhythm, finding a way to find some attunement, some kind of a connection that’s beyond the words. But of course, it would be totally unintelligible if we were not using words. So kind of swimming in that paradox.

Andrew (08:03.181)
Yeah.

Serge Prengel (08:07.078)
and what it feels like to do that.

Andrew (08:09.494)
Yeah, there’s two things you said that I want to offer up because my experience is if we can…

have a different relation to the narrative. The embodiedness underneath can also have a different way of expressing or being even seen. And so, you when you mentioned about what seems to be can’t fully be in both, I would agree, but I believe that there are ways that we can get closer to that. So it doesn’t have to be just this or just that. There’s ways that I can be with you while also still and hear what you’re saying.

and have a mental part but also still have a, whereas I can be with my body as well or be with the felt sensation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Serge Prengel (08:56.188)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you’re talking about not an all or nothing, but in fact, something, some kind of a subtle back and forth where one moment, you you as the listener can be with me, but you can also push back a little bit to be inside and maybe, and certainly unfamiliar with that notion of back and forth.

moving forward in a way so to speak, being with you, then kind of moving backwards a little bit, then seeing how it lands in me, how it resonates, or giving myself a moment to see what’s happening inside, and then coming back.

Andrew (09:37.774)
Yeah, yeah. And similar with that, when you mentioned we were in a struggle, for me that word didn’t land the same. I didn’t feel, and I know it’s a bit semantical, but I didn’t feel we were in a struggle, because for me the struggle would be more of embracing, but we were in this curiosity. We were in this…

I don’t know if I can actually find the word right now that I feel resonates most with that, but struggle didn’t feel right. And…

Serge Prengel (10:12.222)
Yeah, So struggle didn’t feel right, the right word is not quite present, and so maybe just stay silent for a moment and feel the presence of that unsaid word, you know, that feels quite right but is not said and is not, you know, conceptualized.

Andrew (10:33.216)
It came a second, I listened to it, sat for just a second and it came. It’s negotiate, at least for now, it’s negotiation.

Serge Prengel (10:40.338)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so negotiation, negotiation has that quality of mutuality, but also with back and forth. And so the process.

So, yeah, so let’s stay with that. That something is happening that’s a process, a negotiation.

Andrew (11:13.72)
I notice.

It’s, we talked about this when we had a call before that nothing ever came of or nothing big ever came of, but a similar thing of usually I’m in the role where you’re in. And so the interesting thing of wanting to have this talk dialogue and also because

the silence, how will that play for the listener, but also knowing that doesn’t matter. And so I’m in my own negotiation for just simply being here, because I’m not just being here, I’m being here with Surge and with this intention of having a conversation however it might be. So all of these factors in there that I’m sitting with and negotiating, well, where or how does presence show up in that?

Serge Prengel (12:07.442)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you’re pointing out that the negotiation is not just the obvious one, the you and me, but there’s also you and you. And so what’s happening to me as you say that is there is a sense of expansion. You know, just by naming things, it feels like the space is expanding.

to include more complexity. And so there’s a sense of, hmm, something bigger, and curiosity, and a sense of kind of gentle excitement at the presence of something more.

Andrew (13:00.074)
Yeah, yeah, think also gentle excitement or maybe, I don’t know if it’s gentle for me, I’m still, there’s excitement. I don’t know if I can actually right now get to that refinement of it’s gentle or not, but the excitement in terms of, you know, I value these type of conversations. I think there’s great.

I think it’s helpful not just for people in conversation, but the greater theme for all people. And so there’s excitement for me also being with someone I admire, being with someone I respect. And also, wow, I’m getting so much out of this. Even right now I’m landing away. So there’s this excitement. There’s a lot of different noticings around that.

Serge Prengel (13:46.216)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So good stuff, good stuff is happening. It smells good.

Andrew (13:55.406)
It also, makes me, one of the original intentions in our back and forth was, how do we talk about this embodiment thing? And I actually, gave a talk this weekend for one of the things that, one of my titles is I’m a Rolfer, and I gave a talk for this Rolfe Symposium that was all about.

how self-regulation is the most important thing in the session, more important than noticing where our clients are regulated. It’s noticing where are we because we are in some way dictating the therapeutic session that’s going on. And somebody at the end asked me, well, know, in a way like, can you explain in some sort of, you know, more? And I said to them, you know,

Well, right now I’m just even nervous for the talk and I know when I give, when I’m in those states, I sometimes give a quick answer and I know that’s not always it. So I’m going to step back for a moment and take a pause. And I wasn’t trying to do this, but he then said, you’re mirroring what I’m asking. And I thought, that’s interesting, right? That’s in some way.

How do we talk about it if you can’t really? Well, you have to mirror it. Or maybe you don’t have to, but mirroring can be. And yet, how does that mirroring come across in a talk? So I don’t know. I’m sitting in these curiosities, but naming things around it, because I think that’s one of the things we did want to talk about.

Serge Prengel (15:27.154)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so you were talking about this exchange, somebody checking with you what’s it like to self-regulate. And in some ways you mirrored him, but you also applied the self-regulation by saying simply, okay, I’ve learned from experience that jumping to something is not it. And so I don’t have to…

pretend that I know, I can own that I don’t know at this moment, even though in some way I know I could explain it, I did a whole talk about it, but at this moment it’s not available to me. And the truth of the moment is, I need to stop.

Andrew (16:00.322)
Mm.

Andrew (16:05.251)
Mm-hmm.

Andrew (16:13.358)
Yeah.

Andrew (16:22.893)
Yeah.

I’m curious, because I know my tendency, especially in the role I played as body worker and movement therapist, is to be in sort of the charge. I say, you know, I’m following them, they’re really leading, but I’m making it look like I am. So I have, or I can play into that role. And what I’m really curious here in some ways for, not that it has to be my role and your role, but…

for for I’m curious to hear more from you in here or and I don’t know what that means exactly I’m just curious

Serge Prengel (17:03.198)
So what’s happening is, as you point out, you know, there’s roles. so sometimes you’re in the role of the therapist. Sometimes you’re in the role of the podcast host and who’s asking questions. And I certainly can be in the role of the person who is being asked question. And right now I am kind of holding the space. So.

Andrew (17:28.782)
Mm-hmm.

Serge Prengel (17:30.332)
There is a wonderful sense of it’s not something that characterizes Andrew or characterizes Serge, but these are roles. We can be in one or another. And so there’s a quality of play. And so what comes up for me is a sense of a little bit of distance, not distance in a sense of being disconnected.

but distance in the sense of it doesn’t have to be reactive. There’s kind of a little bit of the distance to observe what’s happening while it’s happening. And that feels very pleasant because I feel that this is something that you value, that you do. So it feels very, very nice to actually be in it and name it.

Andrew (18:08.674)
Yeah.

Andrew (18:28.398)
And I ask you a question about that. And maybe you were saying this in a way I’m not sure, the way that I’m curious about and I’m sort of hearing it is, could some of that distance be because you are, as you said, the space holder? And if it is some of that, because you have to step back and hold the space and so you can’t be maybe as in it. And if it is that case, is there a way that

Serge Prengel (18:30.526)
Sure.

Andrew (18:56.46)
we can, in this talk, least share, or try to share space holding or something in that so that the role sort of falls away and it’s just two people being in relation about this thing called embodiment, which can’t even really be named. But I’m curious about that.

Serge Prengel (19:18.654)
So, actually, my sense of it is you just did, you know, kind of shifted the role because you just went to say, hey, we’re playing certain roles. Can we shift the role? And so in doing that, you were asking the question and taking leadership of how it could go. And so it feels like a very nice way.

to, you know, just you took the role of saying, hey, how could it go? And I have the option of saying, yeah, it’s fun. I’d like to follow you or to say, no, it doesn’t work for me. But, you know, that’s great. This is not about, you know, ruling, absolutely. But just, you know, that, so that kind of a dance. And I’m very happy that it’s happening. It feels very nice.

Andrew (20:09.699)
Yeah.

Andrew (20:13.251)
Yeah.

Andrew (20:16.598)
Yeah, it does feel very nice. even as you were kind of saying that, would say the way that I, my, my body, the shape, I’m in this small room that I use sometimes next to my office. And all of a sudden I felt bigger. The room felt smaller.

And I think some of that was, yeah, I don’t have to be the one getting questioned. I don’t have to be in this cage of sorts. I can move beyond it or I can have more, pardon this word, power or more agency in this situation. And just by questioning into the role, that already shifted the role in some way. It was a very interesting experience.

Serge Prengel (20:59.432)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. mean, very clearly that sense of, you know, maybe in some ways as we felt, I’m a little bit prisoner of this role, and do I have to be? And hey, I don’t have to be. And it’s interesting about how if you’re not, then it’s like in a dance, then my role shifts. And I could resist it or I could go with it, but I’m happy to go with it.

Andrew (21:29.186)
Yeah, yeah. So how, for you, how is being in that dance of shifting, which, yeah, I’m curious about that.

Serge Prengel (21:42.078)
So it feels very nice to be in a place, know, it’s a place of mutuality. I mean, not that I think asking question or answering question is different, you know, but there is something about here, there was an issue of role that was at stake. And so what happened is we found a way to bring it, to name it and

to explore it. So we’re saying, you know, there is role notion and sometimes it’s helpful, sometimes it’s a bit of a problem. And here, can we deal with it a little differently? And it feels exciting to me when something happens that’s creative interaction. So I love that sense of being in creative interaction.

Andrew (22:24.322)
Yeah.

Andrew (22:35.138)
Yeah. And again, for me, this all relates to this embodiment because we’re how the body is responding to the world of which it is relating to is shifting. guess one thing that when you were saying came came that I’m wondering is.

think it’s possible that some of that shift was that in seeing the role that we were playing, there was a sense of seeing Serge and seeing him more so as saying, I Serge, see you, I see you in this sort of role. And if you want to, you don’t have to. And so the sense of.

not just seeing the situation, but seeing the person we’re in relation with and if there is enough trust and respect and safety, they can notice, as what we call the respond to the prisonness or noticing the shackles of sorts and say, wow, yeah, that’s right, I have some shackles, I don’t need to wear these shackles anymore.

Serge Prengel (23:32.114)
Yeah, yeah, no, I totally agree with you. I think what happens in the moment, that interaction, that sense of creative is the possibility of shifting from role to something else. And so it feels very alive because there’s no prescribed way in which it goes. So checking inside, I feel there’s a sense of…

Kind of almost like inner bouncing for me.

Andrew (24:04.844)
Yeah, I would say that’s how it seemed to me. I was trying not to lead that before, but it seemed a bit of a foot in, a foot out, a foot in. So even the dance between us, you and me, there’s also a dance between you and the roles. That’s how it seems to me, the way that my…

I don’t know, this is probably what we’re here for, I don’t know a good way to word it. I’d say this isn’t happening to me at a logical level. I’m not really logically saying that, there’s just information coming in and my, in me is responding and saying, search sort of seems in these ways and there’s just this back and forth, except for me to explain it, I then have to go up to that upper level.

Serge Prengel (24:48.904)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course, we couldn’t be. mean, just if we said we don’t use any words or we use a different language instead of English, then there’s no communication possible for people. There’s a limit to how much they would get out of just our body language. So there’s also that’s a dance there that we’re not, we don’t have to kill.

Andrew (25:06.828)
Yeah.

Serge Prengel (25:17.648)
words, we don’t have to kill concepts in order to be more embodied, but it’s in a way shifting the balance.

Andrew (25:29.122)
Yeah, although I’m gonna, I don’t think pushback is the right way. I wanna maybe see about shifting a possibility if possible, which is, you know, one of the roles I mentioned, I am a body worker. And so there is this sort of limit that body language gives, but I also think there’s a whole wealth of information it gives that we’re not aware of. And so much of my work is about…

having people to find that, to learn the bodily language that they’ve lost over time. And think there is a whole wealth of information there that doesn’t need words. But when I work with people, I sometimes say the first few sessions are going to actually be a lot of talk.

because I don’t think I could bring them there. And if they’re just lying there, they’re going to be either lost in thought or it’s common for people to dissociate. just kind of give, because they’re lying there and I freeze response because they don’t know what to do and they can just sort of check out. And so I actually will talk a lot, partly to provide other possibilities. But part of it is the distraction so that they can actually.

connect more into the felt sense of being here on the table. And that’s all coming from this language of the body, which is really, am I bracing? Am I relaxed? Or am I too relaxed? Which is, there’s no agency. There’s just like complete freeze or like a puddle. And so that there is this language in the body of sorts.

Serge Prengel (27:09.05)
So yeah, that’s wonderful. what you’re talking about is how, as a Rolfer, you really want to bring people from the language of words and concepts to being in tune with the language of the body. And how valuable it is to be there and how your work is about being in that place and not lost in the words.

Andrew (27:25.826)
Yeah.

Serge Prengel (27:38.244)
And I get it. and, and there is a different context that what’s happening here is we’re essentially exchanging words because otherwise we were just two bodies. You know, one is we would not access the conceptual part and also it would not make a podcast. And so, and so that’s a, know, in this different context.

Andrew (27:48.792)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Andrew (28:01.677)
No.

Serge Prengel (28:06.78)
you know, how do we keep more of that quality of the focus on the body that you have when you’re in a rolfing relationship with people?

Andrew (28:18.092)
And I think that’s a lot of it. What you just named is…

Because we’re not just bodies and we’re not just minds. I’ll joke with my clients. I say, I’ve never seen a brain just floating down the street. There’s always a body attached to it. you’ve seen people that seem like maybe they have no mind, but they’re just heavily intoxicated or whatnot. But there still is that. And the two are always interlinked together. The question is, how do we have a relation with both? Because they are

always interrelated. And we may not recognize the states that our body is in. And when our body is in these states, the foundation of which the brain or the mind or whatever we want to call it is coming out of, if there is a lot of subcortical response, the body is going to have bracing and the body is going to be in certain ways. And that is a language.

And the more we can check in with that, then Serge and I can have these talks because we are, I believe, more versed in that than maybe the average person. And so we can notice the conceptual realm, but then also say, well, but I’m also noticing this other and I’m aware that this other relates maybe in this area. So can I tune this as a way of having this otherness?

Serge Prengel (29:44.53)
Yeah, So, you know, the thing that you used some words that were very nice there in a very, I want to underline noticing the other things, you know, noticing this other. And so what I think is very nice when you express it this way is it does not mean tuning out the word or saying words don’t count, but it’s just aware that there’s more to what’s happening.

than the words or the ideas. And so that there, for instance, as I’m taking part in the conversation, there is more of me taking part than just the listening to words and making sense of words. I’m also, for instance, listening to your tone of voice and paying attention or noticing your body movement, but very much also noticing what’s happening

and especially in my hands, my hands sometimes in a way kind of follow the meaning or my spine moving forward, backwards, or my shoulders. there’s that, yeah, I love that phrase of paying attention to, that’s something more that’s

Andrew (31:03.953)
Yeah, with that, this is something I spoke about in my talk is the more is not a better or worse. We live in these, there’s a lot of these ways of thinking that more would be better or less would be worse or it can be the other way. But really there’s no morality in this. There’s no better or worse. There’s no good or bad because

At the level of the body, the body is just response. It doesn’t live in a good or bad. That comes later on, cortically speaking, right? Or conceptually speaking. And so we can then, if we can kind of strip away the morals and having to have a meaning of this means that, we can sometimes step back and say, okay, well, could there be more? Could there be less? Not in terms of need to, but just real curiosity and wonderment.

And as we step out of that morality, we can, I believe, can feel more. I would somewhat say that the morality, I used to make a joke because as Rolfers, we talk a lot about fascia. I’d say that the mind is a fascia that goes over the body. And if you can shift some of these concepts, the fascia changes, that the body changes. And so just sort of naming that into that to help build onto this moreness.

Serge Prengel (32:24.872)
Yeah, yeah. So with your image of the mind as a fascia that go over the body, there’s that sense of things being interrelated. You know, just not independent existence of each other. And so it’s a system, and it’s a question of paying more or less attention to different parts of the system.

Andrew (32:51.682)
Yeah, yeah. And it can be hard because one part of that system in general loves to name, you know, and so the more that that part of us can be in…

Being that it can I sometimes almost say it’ll be people won’t be able to see this But I’m putting my hands over my face kind of covering my eyes, but not you know, saying okay I’m not looking but clearly that part can because there’s so much safety that if I can understand it if I can see it if I can name it I’ll be safe for it. That’s a very primal aspect but that can actually in some way keep us in the same loop of sorts and we’re working

Serge Prengel (33:32.754)
Yeah, and you name it when you say it’s about safety. So then being aware that the naming is not necessarily about something better in the sense of getting, achieving greater understanding through the naming, but that a big part of the motivation is the reach for safety that comes from fear.

then there is a sense of, hmm, when I engage in this compulsive naming, could it be my response to fear? And then, and so if there is fear, how do I sense it? What is happening in my body, and is it fear? I don’t want to just assume it’s fear. But so, you know, that just simply, as you said, that awareness of

Andrew (34:25.006)
Yeah, yeah.

Serge Prengel (34:31.696)
naming as safety is something that then can bring us into an embodied dialogue with ourselves or with each other.

Andrew (34:42.358)
Yeah, this is one of the hardest things I find to work with people is what I’ll sometimes say is there are two types of safety. And maybe there’s more, but for here I’ll say two types, right? There’s the mental safety and there’s the body safety. And sometimes they’re the same, but…

If there is fear, I like to sort of shift out of fear and I shift into vulnerability. I take vulnerability because if we’re angry, we’re vulnerable. we’re scared, we’re vulnerable. There’s a sense of vulnerability, the lack of safety, whatever this sort of, again, this non-word word is, this feeling is. But if I make sense of it or if I see it in a certain way, I can have a logical safety which isn’t actually really safe because I haven’t touched into the felt sense underneath it.

And so there’s a challenge here that we can do all the therapy in the world and still be existing on this top level of safety, which hasn’t touched into the felt safety that I believe you’re speaking to underneath. And this is why I do believe talk is helpful, is that we need, in my beliefs, we need to work with both. And again, sometimes they are the same, but often there are slight differences in them.

Serge Prengel (35:44.744)
Yum, yum.

Serge Prengel (35:58.974)
So it feels like that’s something where we go into the heart of the matter. And maybe that I would suggest that the focus of the rest of our talk be there, because I think that’s where we go into the whole disconnect. yeah.

Andrew (36:09.134)
Yeah.

Andrew (36:15.746)
Well, if I can say quickly before we do go, I want to just highlight that this is what I really love about you and about similar processes is that we did not have a map. We had an idea, but we sort of said, OK, let’s just sort of sit with things and be. And as we did, we unfolded this way and that way. And sure, it’s taken 30 minutes. So maybe it could have been done quicker. I don’t care about that. just care, look at that. We’ve ended up in this place that to me feels very potent.

And it was partly because we did not have a grip on how it needed to be.

Serge Prengel (36:43.485)
Yeah.

Serge Prengel (36:48.552)
Yeah, I’m totally with you there. And this is a very potent place for me as well. So this is a meeting point. And that sense of that whole concept of what you described as a negotiation, as an attunement, brings us to find naturally a place that is important, mutually.

Andrew (36:54.851)
Yes.

Andrew (37:12.674)
Yeah, yeah, please.

Serge Prengel (37:14.494)
But I want to just go back to that notion of vulnerability. I like that you call it vulnerability instead of just fear. And I think the part of it is fear can be just a moment. You like you hear a noise, you have a moment of fear, you know, that kind of stuff. And vulnerability, I think for me, has the notion of the human condition. That unlike other animals,

Andrew (37:28.971)
Mm-hmm.

Serge Prengel (37:43.888)
we actually are aware of how vulnerable we are. And so that sense of accepting and managing both our extraordinary abilities, but also the ability to notice vulnerability and to not freak out and manage it, I think is very much part of the human condition. And so,

I think that the moments where we disconnect from it, where it’s too much, are really something that has to do with being overwhelmed by the human condition. And where connection to each other helps is a sense that we’re sharing the human connection and the human condition. And so therefore,

makes it more possible to stay in the face of it and contain it.

Andrew (38:48.652)
Yeah, and there’s, again, you mentioned a paradox earlier, and for me there’s a bit of a paradox that we are all vulnerable, and when we become okay with being vulnerable, it’s almost paradoxical, or there’s almost an invulnerability to being vulnerable, right? There’s this sort of, again, a dance that can happen there that is a bit, it’s not quite a paradox, but it sort of is. And…

again I think you hit it the hard it’s that overwhelm or the underwhelm I would bring that in there too for me the underwhelm is also very very much the the other end of the pole can be the same

just like a, if I have a line that has plus 10 and negative 10, right, they’re both in some way equal, they’re both 10 steps away from the point of balance. And so the underwhelm, you know, because if we were to go into a freeze response, there’s gonna be an underwhelm happening that could also be vulnerable of sorts. Yeah.

Serge Prengel (39:55.228)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So rapid cycling between extremes as opposed to being able to have kind of a gentle swinging back to the center. Yeah.

Andrew (40:01.922)
Yeah.

Andrew (40:07.021)
Yeah.

Yeah, and there’s a funny thing about that. don’t actually, I’ve never looked this up, but I don’t know if whelm is a word and I bring this in with my clients. I’ll say, hey, are we and where’s our whelm at right now? And it’s kind of a funny word to say, but we often talk about overwhelm or underwhelm, but really what would that balanced place be? But I’m in a sort of state of whelm. And I think that’s nice because for me, it gives a gradient to it or a spectrum to it where it’s not so binary. It allows the whole context of

of humanness, of being vulnerable and of being safe and all that to kind of wrap up in that.

Serge Prengel (40:44.808)
Yum, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum. And so for me, what comes up again is that sense of calm. And as you have expressed and as I hear in your voice, as we’ve been talking, and the sense of calm that comes from dealing with something that is so big that we don’t have any reason to try to…

change it because at this point we know we can’t. You I can’t jump to the moon, I can’t change the direction of the earth, I can’t… So there’s something that is so settled that there is something calming about it.

Andrew (41:33.932)
Yeah, although I will say for me, go, at least for today, I’m going, I’m noticing this. This is something I hope in time to learn more from you is I find this whole thing very exciting. And so I’m calm, but there is an excitement talking about this makes me really excited. I find it fascinating and excitement is…

Serge Prengel (41:53.702)
I certainly hope you don’t lose it. I mean, I love when I get excited and think it’s a, you know, I think in a way the whole thing that we’re talking about is the larger spectrum. So it’s not about, you know, cutting off the edges, but it’s about owning the larger. So it feels great.

Andrew (42:08.066)
No, no, no, no, I hear you. It feels great, but I also, when I check in, think, you know, I don’t need to be this excited, that I could still be here and even more present if I was excited, but my spectrum goes a bit over, and that’s because of, think, where I used to be in it. I used to be way more, and I would be in and out of states of dysregulation, and now more there, but…

I hear excitement in you, but not to this point that I am. And I’m not shaming myself. I’m saying, OK, this is where I am. But I know I don’t need that. can still be excited and not be as I am here. that’s because my sympathetic activation is great a little bit. But I think about I sometimes say my dog, when he plays with another dog, he’s playful. He’s funny, sympathetic. But then just an extra drop of sympathetic. And all of a sudden they’re barking at each

other. And so similar, okay I’m here and it’s good, but I also know if I leave here I’m gonna go and I’m gonna still be in this place that’s higher than I need to be and I’m gonna need time to come back down for my clients, which is fine, but I also I believe I don’t need to be in this. I can still be excited and not be at the state that I just was. I slowly am coming out of it.

Serge Prengel (43:24.35)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that sense of you would prefer to tone down the excitement. And see, I’m hearing the excitement in the context of the whole conversation. And so I hear it as incredibly toned down.

Andrew (43:28.546)
Yes.

Serge Prengel (43:53.082)
And so I’m hearing it as in a way the ventral vagal, the engagement has expanded to contain the excitement so that the excitement has in a way enlarged the ventral vagal. But my sense of it is that you’re in it. And what you’re sharing is that yeah, but inside it still feels like a little too much.

Andrew (44:22.082)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I’m noticing the tension in my body that doesn’t necessarily need to be there. I’m also noticing this, unfortunately, this room I’m in.

is closet and it gets very warm. so is it that I’m warm because of the temperature in here, which is keeping me up? Or is it that I’m warm because I’m heating up because I’m excited or both? So noticing the physiological responses and saying, I know I can be excited because I’ve also as I’ve mirrored it, as I’ve dropped down, I’ve had the same amount of excitement, but I’m excited versus I’m excited, you know, and I don’t need to go to that one because there’s enough space. And I would even say that as this

grows in some way as it I can have in a space where I can keep excitement but not necessarily maybe fill the space with excitement as much as fill the space with with more than just that excitement and there can be a different relation even as I say that with you again my body this space there’s a whole wealth of things happening

Serge Prengel (45:21.928)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I’m hearing it again as, in a way, like gathering some sort of power, you know, like chi, and saying, you know, I’m noticing that I can shape it. And it’s really nice to be able to shape it. And I’d like to shape it even more so that there’s more interaction between that energy.

and me for whatever the difference between the energy and me is. And so, you know, in that sense of there’s that kind of strange way that we have of talking because, you know, then what’s the difference? What is me versus the energy? What is me versus the fact that the space is warm? Or am I kind of warming the space in some way or?

What’s the influence of the narrower, the closet type space? So it comes, it speaks to how we never function outside of interaction and how there is no such thing as me alone or Andrew alone without the interaction and the curiosity about, this is what happens. and circumstances make me this or make me that way.

And to what extent do I have, does my intentionality have any control over what’s happening? And so in some ways, to me, this is the starting point or the alive part of the journey of being mindful. Kind of entering into these things about, well, that’s me, there’s outside, but what’s the difference? How does what’s happening so-called outside?

Andrew (47:03.469)
Yeah.

Andrew (47:07.299)
Yeah.

Serge Prengel (47:17.072)
influence what’s happening inside, you know, the back and forth. so it becomes an interesting kind of a whole departure, point of departure for the journey.

Andrew (47:28.662)
Yeah, I mean there’s so much in there that I was just jotting notes down and also thinking I don’t want to open them up per se because we’ve already been a lot of time and I know people…

Serge Prengel (47:42.012)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So maybe let’s find a landing place. know, just let’s each take a moment to see what comes up as a landing place.

Serge Prengel (48:19.262)
So what comes up for me is a notion of interaction. That in some way, our intention was to say, you know, we want to be present. And we talked a lot about the interaction, in a sense of we’ve been exploring how to be present in interaction, but also how, you know, the fluidity of the question itself. It’s not, you know, maybe at the beginning, in a way, the question was more precise.

than where we land. And we land in a place where it’s much more fluid. And so there’s kind of a satisfaction in being in that place and having shared it.

Andrew (49:01.59)
Yeah, yes, yes, and, a bit of me has a-

dissatisfaction because I say, there are these three other doors, there are these five other pedals. I wanna be in relation. I wanna share them, not just for Surgeon Me, but I find it helpful for all human beings too. And then I have to say, okay, well, that’s great. You have your wants, but I don’t think so for today. What was landing for me when we were in that moment of silence was…

the want to share some stuff, the want to express, the want to be in relation, and then just sitting with it. I almost wanted to say nothing, but again, that wouldn’t come off in a way. But there was an intentionality to just say nothing, just to be really in a state of well that it’s okay. You want to share.

You enjoy search. And it’s okay, you don’t have to. You don’t need to.

Serge Prengel (50:10.088)
Yeah, yeah. So that sense of being in the moment, aware of how there could be so much more, and coming back to simply being in the moment.

Serge Prengel (50:30.354)
and in the interaction.

Andrew (50:35.382)
noticing the appreciation. Yeah, there’s a lot of appreciation. There’s other stuff I’m noticing now, I think as I’ve become more comfortable and safe, other vulnerabilities peeking their head in a fine way, but really just appreciation for you, for what you do, for how you do it.

Serge Prengel (51:01.662)
Thank you, Andrew. I do have a deep appreciation for you and for the kind of conversation that we can have and share.

Andrew (51:13.986)
Well, part of me says, great, I can’t wait till the next. But this is good for now.

Serge Prengel (51:24.904)
Yeah, thank you.

Andrew (51:26.626)
Thanks, Serge.

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